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Judging in FIRST Tech Challenge

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  • LukeTheCoder64
    replied
    Originally posted by FTC4318 View Post
    If "self reflection" is such a wonderful tool then why is FIRST surveying us all the time? Why not just sit in a room together and self reflect?
    Checkmate.

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  • FTC4318
    replied
    I highlighted this issue in my survey response for Worlds 2016. If "self reflection" is such a wonderful tool then why is FIRST surveying us all the time? Why not just sit in a room together and self reflect? Honestly, the whole thing is just so silly and doesn't stand up to common sense or common practices. Even a standard rubric form with number values ranging from 1 to 10 for each category would be a step in the right direction.

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  • Alec
    replied
    Originally posted by FTC Ringer View Post
    Yep, you got it exactly! And excellent point about the other programs allowing judges to give feedback. FTC is the oddball in the FIRST programs that doesn't allow it. And the oddball among pretty much any other youth program I've had experience with.
    There are similarities between FLL, FTC, and FRC, and they all fall under the FIRST umbrella, but nevertheless they are three different sports and in three different leagues.

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  • FTC Ringer
    replied
    Originally posted by LukeTheCoder64 View Post
    The point FTC Ringer was trying to make is that there are already several aspects of FTC in which the Quality And Accuracy of decisions varies by Region.

    If the judge is a judge who would give inappropriate feedback to teams, that would already be obvious through their other actions.

    FLL (and AFAIK FRC) allows judges to give feedback, and they don't have liability issues.

    Luke
    Yep, you got it exactly! And excellent point about the other programs allowing judges to give feedback. FTC is the oddball in the FIRST programs that doesn't allow it. And the oddball among pretty much any other youth program I've had experience with.

    Leave a comment:


  • LukeTheCoder64
    replied
    Originally posted by Alec View Post
    FTC has two different types of sports. There are judges for the judged sport and referees for the robot competition sport.

    This thread is concerning the rules for judges in the judged sport, which can't be compared with the rules for referees in the robot competition sport.
    The point FTC Ringer was trying to make is that there are already several aspects of FTC in which the Quality And Accuracy of decisions varies by Region.

    If the judge is a judge who would give inappropriate feedback to teams, that would already be obvious through their other actions.

    FLL (and AFAIK FRC) allows judges to give feedback, and they don't have liability issues.

    Luke

    Leave a comment:


  • Alec
    replied
    Originally posted by FTC Ringer View Post
    I suppose they should also ban referees from calling penalties. Quality and accuracy of the calls will vary from region to region, giving teams in some regions a competitive advantage over teams in other regions.
    FTC has two different types of sports. There are judges for the judged sport and referees for the robot competition sport.

    This thread is concerning the rules for judges in the judged sport, which can't be compared with the rules for referees in the robot competition sport.

    Leave a comment:


  • FTC Ringer
    replied
    Originally posted by Alec View Post
    Another ramification of volunteer judges is that you are bound to get incomplete and/or inconsistent feedback. Sometimes feedback can do more harm than good. Plus the quality and accuracy of the feedback will vary from region to region, giving teams in some regions a competitive advantage over teams in other regoins. All things considered, it seems necessary not to permit feedback from FTC judges.
    I suppose they should also ban referees from calling penalties. Quality and accuracy of the calls will vary from region to region, giving teams in some regions a competitive advantage over teams in other regions.

    Leave a comment:


  • Alec
    replied
    Another ramification of volunteer judges is that you are bound to get incomplete and/or inconsistent feedback. Sometimes feedback can do more harm than good. Plus the quality and accuracy of the feedback will vary from region to region, giving teams in some regions a competitive advantage over teams in other regoins. All things considered, it seems necessary not to permit feedback from FTC judges.

    Leave a comment:


  • LukeTheCoder64
    replied
    Originally posted by Alec View Post
    Well, as I said, volunteers are not all created equal. Even great volunteers can have a bad day. Not permitting feedback from judges protects volunteers and FIRST against wrong or inappropriate feedback to minors.
    If a single judge gives inappropriate feedback to a participant, we should be questioning why that judge was selected, not why feedback from judges is wrong.

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  • Alec
    replied
    Originally posted by FTC Ringer View Post
    What liability issues are those? Liable for what?
    And how do judges give indirect feedback? Whether they give you an award or not?
    Well, as I said, volunteers are not all created equal. Even great volunteers can have a bad day. Not permitting feedback from judges protects volunteers and FIRST against wrong or inappropriate feedback to minors.

    Leave a comment:


  • FTC Ringer
    replied
    Originally posted by Alec View Post
    Judges are volunteers and volunteers are not all created equal. There would be liability issues (among other ramifications) if FTC judges were allowed to give feedback.

    Judges do give a lot of indirect feedback. It is a skill for students to learn to pick up on indirect feedback.
    What liability issues are those? Liable for what?
    And how do judges give indirect feedback? Whether they give you an award or not?

    Leave a comment:


  • Alec
    replied
    Judges are volunteers and volunteers are not all created equal. There would be liability issues (among other ramifications) if FTC judges were allowed to give feedback.

    Judges do give a lot of indirect feedback. It is a skill for students to learn to pick up on indirect feedback.

    Moreover, mentors can glean valuable feedback by judging other teams -- but please don't volunteer to judge primarily for this reason, or risk being less than equal to good volunteers.

    Leave a comment:


  • LukeTheCoder64
    replied
    I'd like to re-open this discussion after the publishment of Game Manual Pt 1, which states....
    FIRST Tech Challenge does not permit feedback provided to Teams during or after their Interview has taken
    place at official Tournaments
    . FIRST Tech Challenge judging is a subjective process; the goal is to prepare
    student Team members with real life Interview skills, and to continue to build upon those skills from Event to
    Event.
    FIRST encourages Teams to utilize the Self-Reflection Sheet to evaluate themselves through the Interview.
    This sheet is accessible online. Teams should not ask the Judges for feedback after the interview is complete.
    An essential aspect of FIRST Tech Challenge Judging is the subjectivity, and that FIRST Tech Challenge
    encourages students to learn how to self-evaluate. Although it may be that Teams are discouraged by this,
    learning this process is an invaluable life skill.
    So the argument presented is: "No, we can't provide feedback, because you need to learn to 'self-reflect'."

    Luke

    Leave a comment:


  • FTC6389
    replied
    Hi JoAnn,

    Our team wanted to add something to this discussion. It seems to us that the limericks the judges are required to make up are in lieu of telling the audience why a team was selected to win an award. Telling the audience why a team was selected would "provide feedback" only to teams that receive awards. We feel that what FIRST is missing is that the award ceremony is the perfect opportunity, time, and place to provide feedback. By telling everyone exactly why the judges chose a specific team to win the Inspire award will help other teams understand what it takes to bring their own team to that level. Do you know that many teams leave before the awards ceremony, because they don't feel like they are going to win anything, and therefore they feel there is no value in them staying? By not telling your audience why a team was selected by the judges, you are doing the exact opposite of what you claim you want to do. Not telling the world why a team was selected creates wonder and doubt about the entire judging process. We understand that there will always be a subjective aspect to judging, just as their is in diving or gymnastics or any other event in which judges score competitors. The complete lack of judging transparency FIRST has chosen is not in the best interest of the students involved in our opinion, and as you have said many times, that's what FIRST is all about, right? How are teams supposed to understand exactly what team X did during their season to receive an award? Many teams don't have social media on which they share all their designs, outreach activities, engineering notebook, etc. If FIRST is truly interested in helping every team get better, it seems to our team that the path forward is obvious.

    Respectfully,

    - The Lazybotts

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  • FTC4318
    replied
    It seems to me and others in the community that this whole "self reflection" stance is based on not wanting to put judges in the position of explaining their decisions rather than it being in the best interest of the students. What educational model has "self reflection" as the singular mechanism for improvement? What job? What really are we preparing them for with this approach? FLL provides feedback based on rubrics to teams. Florida FTC does use scored rubrics for judging and gives report cards to their teams on their Engineering Notebooks: http://ftc.flfirst.org/Docs/2015-201...wards_V3.0.pdf

    Why not adopt their model for all of FTC? They have done a terrific job of standardizing what is by its nature a subjective process. This is a STEM program - let's use the math to make it as fair and as transparent as we can.

    A way to avoid questioning/confrontation about why one team got this award over another is to simply to stand by your judges and say FTC does not take awards away from teams once they are given. That would not be GP. Do invite feedback on how to make the judging process better but make it clear that there is no "replay" in judging. End of story.

    Leave a comment:

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