Allowed phones - No progress? After so many years of FTC Android please justify.

[FTC5110]

Okay so we can't buy Moto G5 phones here in New Zealand. They've been a run-out model for a while and replaced by a minor model variant G5s which is also run-out while stocks last. The official answer about G5s is here https://ftcforum.usfirst.org/forum/t...8521#post68521

Last season Samsung Galaxy S5 Sport and S5 Active were allowed variations of the S5. The above Q&A implies these are now deemed illegal for use in FTC too so hopefully there aren't many teams affected by this change of heart.

EVERY PHONE YOU LIST IN THE GAME MANUAL IS OLD! Are we supposed to buy refurbished junk from eBay or what? Not everyone lives in the USA and can just buy some run-out prepay phones from Verizon or some random Amazon seller. These phones have a half-life of 6 months or less.

<RS03>
a. ZTE Speed: 4.4 or higher (Kit Kat) - Released 2014, December - Basically junk now.
b. Motorola Moto E4: 7.1 or higher (Nougat) - Released 2017, June - On clearance very limited availability in some markets. Replaced by Moto E5
c. Motorola Moto G 2nd Generation, Motorola Moto G 3rd Generation, Google Nexus 5, Samsung Galaxy S5: 6.0 or higher (Marshmallow) - All old phones no longer available except from eBay.
d. Motorola Moto G4 Play: 6.0.1 or higher (Marshmallow) - Released 2016, August - Can't buy this anymore.
e. Motorola Moto G5: 7.0 or higher (Nougat) - Replaced by facelift model G5s and now G6.

Absolutely we get the "sorry we can't support phone ______ at a tournament" but honestly if a team has used a phone during their build/development process and are happy it works for them why restrict their options to some outdated phones you can't even buy! I can't think of a single FTA or other FTC technical specialist I recall meeting who couldn't/wouldn't still help with an "unlisted phone" problem and let's face it the majority of issues are physical connections or congested wifi anyhow. We're willing to forgo official event support in a heartbeat and even wear a special badge to indicate it.

So I ask you FTC staff:
1.) What specifically do you do to test a phone for use with the FTC SDK? Is there an internal procedure document teams are privy to?
2.) At World Championship events when international teams show up with non-listed phones do you still pass them through inspection? (I know the answer to this one - seen it)
3.) When a phone has exactly the same chipset and Android version as another what exactly do you anticipate will break? Is the FTC SDK really still that flaky?
4.) Why not just specify a phone chipset and minimum Android version for said chipset? Still provide a guaranteed supported phone list but don't restrict.
5.) Save teams some money? Outside the game manual it would be easy to maintain a webpage matrix of phones with team contributions and officially "tested".
6.) What do FIRST sponsors think about phone restrictions? TensorFlow added to FTC SDK. Google Pixel phones not allowed. Ludicrous.
7.) Which model phone was this? Maybe it wasn't on the official list https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G9k8R6f9UI

[FTC12676]

I have same questions. I asked this last year also. I think they should allow any phone at team

[Alec]

If none of the legal phones are readily available in certain parts of the world, then the legal phones are not legal per <RM01>.

I understand and appreciate the reasons for allowing only tested Android devices, however, I haven't heard of a reason compelling enough to have to make an exception to <RM01> considering that teams are competent enough to conduct their own tests.

As long as the device meets guidelines concerning processing power, memory, Android version, wifi capabilities, etc., teams should be allowed to conduct their own tests, and can help teams in other parts of the world by sharing the results of their tests on this forum.

[FTC5110]

If none of the legal phones are readily available in certain parts of the world....

So here's how it works outside the USA. We don't end up with large stockpiles of run-out models and prepay phones kicking around because the importers switch to newer models quickly. Case in point Moto G5 was updated to G5s and the G5 became unavailable. G5s stock is almost exhausted too because G6 has replaced it. FTC HQ think it's a good idea to limit us to unavailable phones? But we haven't tested them they cry! LOL

This is just mad and it's time FTC staff got a grip on reality outside the USA. Sadly the likelihood a staff member will actually reply to this thread in a timely manner, if at all, is depressingly low.

It's time teams let FIRST know their highly restrictive Android phone rules are unwarranted. We were told the Android system would be "practice like you play" so if a team is happy the system is working for them prior to an event there's absolutely zero reason to limit their device choice.

[JoAnn]

So here's how it works outside the USA. We don't end up with large stockpiles of run-out models and prepay phones kicking around because the importers switch to newer models quickly. Case in point Moto G5 was updated to G5s and the G5 became unavailable. G5s stock is almost exhausted too because G6 has replaced it. FTC HQ think it's a good idea to limit us to unavailable phones? But we haven't tested them they cry! LOL

This is just mad and it's time FTC staff got a grip on reality outside the USA. Sadly the likelihood a staff member will actually reply to this thread in a timely manner, if at all, is depressingly low.

It's time teams let FIRST know their highly restrictive Android phone rules are unwarranted. We were told the Android system would be "practice like you play" so if a team is happy the system is working for them prior to an event there's absolutely zero reason to limit their device choice.

I believe Affiliate Partners for regions outside North America have the option to contact their Partner Service Manager at FIRST to request an exception for their region - especially if none of the 'allowed' phones in the game manual are available there. With rookie team registration responsible for a 12 to 15 percent team number growth for the program annually, allowing every team to use any phone they like could be very detrimental to the rookie team experience. I'm sure you can agree that the rookie team experience is important as well.

As always, I can be reached by email at jhalloran@firstinspires(dot)org. Please don't hesitate to send an email.

Thanks,

JoAnn
FTC Program Manager

[FTC0417]

JoAnn, wouldn't making the articulated list of phones in the manual be a recommended list rather than a permitted list accomplish all the goals of a good rookie experience while at the same time allowing the flexibility for teams to adapt to local conditions that is being requested here?

[JoAnn]

JoAnn, wouldn't making the articulated list of phones in the manual be a recommended list rather than a permitted list accomplish all the goals of a good rookie experience while at the same time allowing the flexibility for teams to adapt to local conditions that is being requested here?

Hi FTC0417,

I don't think so. I think we would still be responsible for supporting teams who didn't purchase a recommended model at events. I can't think of a single FTA who would not agonize over a team that couldn't compete because they ordered something incompatible, or flakey, and the FTA couldn't make it right.

Our Affiliate Partners outside of North America all know that they can ask their Partner Service Manager for an allowance to use a different phone model for teams in their area, based on their ability to support the product for their local events, and still keep some measure of consistency in place for the teams. It's not a perfect solution, but we have had requests in the past, and with very few exceptions, we've honored them.

JoAnn