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    Air Jordan
    Game Design Committee Member

  • Air Jordan
    replied
    Section 1.5.4 End Game Pull-up - Contact with the side of the High Zone Goal

    Originally posted by FTC6055
    Our robot sometimes touches the side of the Mountain High Zone Goal during our final hang. According to responses #73 and #137, we are completing a successful Pull-up when this is the case. However, when we pointed this out, we were told that there was a referee forum that had discussed this matter, and the decision was made there that since we were touching a side of the Mountain High Zone Goal that was below the plane running perpendicular to the mountain surface and through the top churro, we were touching something in the high zone, and therefore our robot was in the high zone, not the cliff zone.

    Q1: Please clarify if non-supportive contact with the side of the Mountain High Zone Goal, even if it is below the plane perpendicular to the Mountain panel and through the top churro, is allowed during a successful Pull-up.

    Q2: Does the “referee forum” take precedence over this Game Forum?

    Thank you!

    A1: Yes, non-supportive contact with any part of the side of the Mountain High Zone Goal is allowed for a successful Pull-up, even if the contact is with a part of the Goal that is Inside the High Zone. See posts #73 and #137 for additional guidance.

    A2: The private referee and public team forums have equal standing. The members of the Game Design Committee that answer questions posted to the referee and team forums coordinate their answers so that there should be no conflicts between the forums. If tournament officials at an active event believe that there is a conflict between forum posts, they are encouraged to contact the on call FIRST representative to receive an official ruling.

    We reviewed the relevant forum posts and both forums state that non-supportive contact with the side of the Mountain High Zone Goal is allowed for a successful Pull-up

    There are a lot of rules and forum posts for for teams and referees to remember. Applying the game rules and guidance from the forums can be difficult for some complex match scenarios. I suspect that in this case, the confusion was caused by using the rules and forum guidance that apply to Parking in the High Zone and extending them to also apply to a successful Pull-up.

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  • Air Jordan
    Game Design Committee Member

  • Air Jordan
    replied
    <GS9> Blocking Access - Debris in the Mountain Climbing Area

    Originally posted by FTC8644
    Following up on post #8:

    --------------------------
    Originally Posted by FTC5873
    If a Robot is trying to Score in a Low Zone, Mid Zone, or High Zone Goal and Inadvertently but not Inconsequentially spills Debris onto the opposing side of the Mountain, does this violate <GS10>?

    A: No, this is not a violation of rule <GS10>.

    Game Design Committee Warning: Intentionally depositing Debris into an opposing Alliance Mountain Climbing Area is considered to be a strategy that Blocks Access and violates rule <GS9>. Inadvertently depositing Debris into an opposing Alliance Mountain Climbing Area during the act of Scoring into a Mountain Goal is allowed.

    --------------------------

    Q1: If a red-alliance robot tries to put 2 cubes into a high goal that already contains 14 cubes, and those 2 cubes spill onto the blue ramp, is that 2 40-point penalties?
    Q2: If a red-alliance robot tries to put 5 cubes into a high goal that already contains 10 cubes (just to make sure that the goal can be "topped off" with cubes), and one spills onto the blue ramp, is that a 40-point penalty?
    Q3: If a red-alliance robot tries to put 5 cubes into a high goal that already contains 9 cubes, and 2 spill onto the blue ramp, is that 2 40-point penalties?

    First of all, the penalties cited in the questions are not consistent with the consequence for violating rule <GS9>. The penalty for violating rule <GS9> is a Major Penalty plus an additional Major Penalty for every five seconds that the condition persists. Also keep in mind that <GS9> Penalties are assessed only if a Robot on the opposing Alliance is actively attempting to access or escape the affected Area. If rule <GS9> comes into play for depositing Debris into the opposing Alliance's Climbing Area, the Penalty is not per Debris. Placing two pieces of Debris receives the same Penalty as placing a single piece of Debris in the opposing Alliance's Climbing Area.

    A1, A2 & A3: The Robot's actions described in all three questions do not violate any rules. No penalty should be assessed.

    If a <GS9> warning has not been issued by a referee, Robot actions that attempt to place Debris into a Mountain Goal should not receive <GS9> Penalties; even if the Mountain Goal already contains nine, ten, fourteen, or more pieces of Debris.

    During a Match, it is difficult for Referees and Drive Teams to determine with certainty if a Mountain Goal has the capacity to hold more Debris. Robots should be allowed attempts to place additional Debris into a Mountain Goal without incurring <GS9> Penalties, until a Robot has demonstrated that it is unlikely that a Mountain Goal is capable of holding additional Debris (i.e. most of the Debris spill onto the Mountain and not into the Goal). If a Robot tries to place Debris into a Mountain Goal and most of the Debris spill onto the opposing Alliance's Climbing Area because the Goal is at capacity, Referees will issue a warning. After a referee's warning, further attempts to place Debris into the full goal may receive Penalties for violating rule <GS9>.

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  • Air Jordan
    Game Design Committee Member

  • Air Jordan
    replied
    &lt;GS9&gt; Blocking Access &amp; &lt;G16&gt; Pinning or Trapping

    Originally posted by FTC9899
    We have two questions, as we have sometimes observed these scenarios when several robots are bunched together during a match.

    Q1: Consider the following situation. A robot is positioned between an opposing robot and a mountain of the opposite color (e.g. Red team robot between a Blue team robot and a Blue mountain), so that the opposing robot would be unable to access the mountain if an attempt was made. The two robots are fairly close together. This persists for well over five seconds. When the (Red) robot eventually moves away from the (Blue) mountain, the opposing (Blue) robot does not immediately attempt to access the (Blue) mountain but instead performs some other task (e.g. gathers debris for several seconds) before attempting to access the (Blue) mountain. How does rule GS9 apply? If the opposing (Blue) robot does not actively attempt to access the (Blue) mountain soon after access becomes possible, was the (Red) robot blocking access per GS9?

    Q2: Consider another situation. A robot is in front of a mountain of the opposite color (e.g. Red team robot in front of a Blue mountain). Two robots from the opposing (Blue) alliance are positioned so that the (Red) robot is unable to move away from the front of the (Blue) mountain. How do rules G16 and GS9 apply? Does pinning or trapping apply to the space in front of the (Blue) mountain, and can a (Red) robot be penalized for blocking access per GS9 if it is trapped by two opposing (Blue) robots per G16?

    Thanks,

    FTC 9899


    A1: The scenario described in the question does not violate rule <GS9> because the Blue Alliance Robot is not actively attempting to access its Alliance's Mountain Climbing Area.

    A2: Rule <GS9> applies if one or more of the Blue Alliance Robots are actively attempting to access their Mountain Climbing Area. The Blue Alliance Robot(s) need to provide an obvious indication of their intent to access the Mountain before the <GS9> consequences come into play. For example, in the scenario described in the question, a Blue Alliance Robot moving towards their Alliance's Mountain Climbing Area and making contact with the Red Alliance Robot is a good indication of intent to access the Mountain. Since the Red Alliance Robot described in the scenario does not have an open path to leave the entrance to the Mountain Climbing Area, one or more Robots on the Blue Alliance must give the Red Alliance Robot a reasonable opportunity to escape the area after the Blue Alliance has made it clear that they want to access their Alliance's Climbing Area before <GS9> penalties are applied. If the Blue Alliance Robots do not allow the Red Alliance Robot to escape, the Trapping rule comes into play and <GS9> consequences are not applied because of rule <G17> protections.

    The Pinning or Trapping Rule, <G16>, comes into play if the Red Alliance Robot in the example provides an obvious indication of their intent to leave the area in front of the Blue Alliance Mountain Climbing Area and the Blue Alliance Robots continue to Block all exit paths for the Red Alliance Robot.

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  • Air Jordan
    Game Design Committee Member

  • Air Jordan
    replied
    Section 1.5.4.1 End Game - Cliff Pull-up

    Originally posted by FTC8720
    Hi,
    Our team (#8720 Eagles) uses custom 3D printed "paddles" to grip the churros on the mountain while climbing. These "paddles" stop our robot from slipping, and help us easily climb the mountain. However, at previous tournaments, there has been a lot of talk about whether our robot is hanging or not on the mountain in certain positions. We would like to clarify which positions our robot can be in to clarify as hanging.

    Follow the link below to access 5 exhibits (with a picture and description) of our robot hanging. In each one, the paddles are in a different position (not touching (control), a little bit touching on the top, a little bit touching on the bottom, completely touching the top, and completely touching on the bottom). We would be extremely grateful if you could inform us of which exhibits count as hanging, and which ones don't. Thank you so much for your time and effort!

    Thanks,
    Team 8720
    A: If the Cliff Low Bar provides support like a "step" to any part of the Robot, including the "paddles" described in the question, it is not a successful Pull-up. A Robot leaning against the Cliff Low Bar like a person leans against a wall remains eligible to earn points for a Pull-up. Robots parts that touch the underneath side of the Cliff Low Bar remain eligible to earn points for a Pull-up.

    The link was removed to protect the privacy of the person that posted the question.

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  • Air Jordan
    Game Design Committee Member

  • Air Jordan
    replied
    &lt;G13&gt; Robots Deliberately Detaching Parts &amp; &lt;S1&gt; Unsafe Robot

    Originally posted by FTC5916
    Rule G13 indicates robot disabling and team disqualification for a robot which deliberately-detaches components which prevent additional scoring by any robot.

    Q1: Are there penalties for deliberately-detached components which do not prevent additional scoring by any robot?

    Q2: Do detached components count as part of the robot after their detachment?

    Thank you!

    A1: Intentionally detached Robot parts are an unexpected obstacle that creates a navigation and safety hazard. Rule <S1> consequences will be applied if a Robot intentionally detaches a part. Referees may Disable the offending Robot and/or the Team may be Disqualified from the Match. A warning in this situation is not required due to the inherent risk.

    A2: Yes.

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  • Air Jordan
    Game Design Committee Member

  • Air Jordan
    replied
    &lt;G8&gt; Stopping Game Play Late - Cliff Pull-up

    Originally posted by FTC4546
    If during End Game a robot were to stop late (after the buzzer, and reaction time) because they were in the process of completing a "hang" from the pull up bar (while compiling with rules GS13, GS18, GS19, GS 21). Would the result of the action be one minor penalty (assuming the robot did not gain a nonscoring competitive advantage)?

    A: One Minor Penalty should be awarded and the Robot is not eligible to receive points for performing a Cliff Pull-up.

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  • Air Jordan
    Game Design Committee Member

  • Air Jordan
    replied
    &lt;G12&gt; Recording the Score after objects come to rest - Cliff Pull-up

    Originally posted by FTC9579
    Q: In order to get the 80 points for the pull-up bar, do we have to hang our robot until the is power off, or can we do a pull-up and return to the mountain?

    A: Rule <G12> states that referee scoresheets are filled out at the end of the Driver-Controlled Period when all objects on the Playing Field have come to rest. A Robot that performs "a Pull-up and returns to the mountain" will not earn points for a successful Pull-up because the Robot isn't performing the Pull-up at the end of the Match when the Score is recorded.

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  • Air Jordan
    Game Design Committee Member

  • Air Jordan
    replied
    &lt;GS7&gt; Debris Possession/Control Constraint - Clearing Debris: Beacon Repair Zone

    Originally posted by FTC10131
    Post #72 of this thread says "Plowing through Debris without a strategic Scoring or defensive intent for the Debris is NOT subject to rule <GS7> Penalties. A few examples of Robot actions that the rule is NOT intended to prevent (i.e. the actions do not earn <GS7> Penalties) are:

    a) A Robot driving from its Match starting location to the Rescue Beacon Repair Zone;
    b) Plowing through Debris to gain access to the Mountain;
    c) Clearing Debris from blocking access to the Mountain; provided that the Debris is not moved to block the entrance Area of the opposing Alliance's side of the Mountain or to Score in a Floor Goal."

    Q: Is it also OK to clear more than 5 debris at a time from blocking access to the Rescue Beacon Repair Zone, provided that the Debris is not moved to block an entrance Area of the opposing Alliance's side of the Mountain, to Score in a Floor Goal, or for other strategic Scoring or defensive intent? May we do this without incurring <GS7> penalties?

    A: The purposeful clearing of Debris from the Rescue Beacon Repair Zone is subject to the Debris Possession/Control constraints specified in rule <GS7>.

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  • Air Jordan
    Game Design Committee Member

  • Air Jordan
    replied
    Section 1.5.4.2 End Game - Approximately Vertical All Clear Signal

    Originally posted by FTC5795
    Hello. We are looking for some guidance on the 1.5.4 rule for the all clear signal. As you know the rule for scoring says the the corresponding Alliance color baton is rotated upward into an approximate vertical orientation. We are looking at a scenario where our lift arm is between the lift arm and the baton which gives a ~1 - 1.5 inch gap at the top of the baton based on the angle of the baton sitting on our lift arm. This certainly makes it "approximately vertical" as it is between 70-80 degrees and definitely turned toward our side, but is that enough for an "approximately vertical orientation" or is it solely based on the ruling at the match? We haven't run into this yet and in looking at the postings I could find further guidance on this so we wanted to post the question.

    Thank you.

    A: There is no absolute measure that defines Approximately Vertical. By definition, the word approximate in the scoring position includes a range of acceptable scoring positions for the All Clear Signal. If in the opinion of the referees at the field, the All Clear Signal is approximately vertical, it should be counted as scored.

    The scenario described in the question appears to satisfy the approximately vertical requirement for the All Clear Flag. Referees observing the Match will make the final decision.

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  • Air Jordan
    Game Design Committee Member

  • Air Jordan
    replied
    &lt;GS7&gt; Debris Possession/Control Constraint - Clearing Debris off of the Mountain ramp

    Originally posted by FTC4149
    In the case where a robot is controlling 5 pieces of debris, and is approaching the mountain for the purpose of scoring, can features of the robot be used to clear debris from the mountain ramp without incurring a <GS7> penalty? It seems that plowing is allowed, but would dragging also be allowed?

    A: This activity is comparable to the allowed action of clearing Debris from the Playing Field floor in front of the Mountain entrance. Robots may clear Debris from their Alliance's Mountain Climbing Area without incurring <GS7> penalties; provided that the Debris above the five count limit are not moved for a defensive or Debris Scoring purpose. A few examples of Intentional actions that are considered to be strategic defensive or Scoring actions that violate rule <GS7> if more than five Debris are Possessed or Controlled by a Robot are:

    1. Moving Debris to block the entrance of the opposing Alliance's Climbing Area.
    2. Moving Debris onto the opposing Alliance's Mountain Climbing Area.
    3. Scoring Debris into a Goal.

    Movement of Debris can be unpredictable. If Debris is moved into an Area that may provide a strategic advantage, Referees that are watching the Match will determine if the movement of the additional Debris was a purposeful strategy to gain a Scoring or defensive advantage that is a violation of rule <GS7>, or an Inadvertent result of clearing Debris from the Mountain that is not a violation of <GS7>.

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  • Air Jordan
    Game Design Committee Member

  • Air Jordan
    replied
    &lt;GS5&gt; Autonomous Period Robot Keep Out Area - Defensive Strategy

    Originally posted by FTC4466
    Q: As a follow up to post #139, what would a defensive autonomous intended to hit or get in the way of another robot have to do to get a penalty?

    Thanks!

    A: The Robot would have to violate a game rule in order to receive a Penalty. Referees observing the match will determine if the defensive actions violate a game rule.

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  • Air Jordan
    Game Design Committee Member

  • Air Jordan
    replied
    &lt;GS18&gt; Robot contact with the Mountain Cliff Zone before the End Game

    Originally posted by FTC10251
    Q1: Would the answers to the questions posed in game post 128 have changed if the questions has said "accidentally contact" instead of just "contact"?

    Q2: Can you clarify what "the predictable result of persistent or repeated actions" in the definition of Inadvertent means?

    Q3: If you strategically put something near a Cliff Zone component before the End Game with the intent of not touching the Cliff Zone component before the End Game, is accidentally touching it due to driver error before the End Game not inadvertent because it was predictable that driver error would sometimes cause accidental contact before the End Game?

    A1: No.

    A2: An example is when Robot action "A" usually results in outcome "B," the outcome is a predictable result of a specific action.

    A3: Robot actions close to the Cliff Zone that prepare the Robot for the End Game Achievements and result in Robot contact with a Cliff Zone component prior to the start of the End Game are not Inadvertent in the context of rule <GS18>.

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  • Air Jordan
    Game Design Committee Member

  • Air Jordan
    replied
    &lt;GS5&gt; Autonomous Period Robot Keep Out Area - Defensive Strategy

    Originally posted by FTC4466
    Would an autonomous program designed to cross the gaffers tape after the 10 second mark and block the opposing alliance from reaching their beacon be allowed?

    A: Yes, Robots may enter the opposing Alliance Area after the first ten seconds of the Autonomous Period to Score, play defense, etc.

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  • Air Jordan
    Game Design Committee Member

  • Air Jordan
    replied
    Section 1.5.3.4 Driver-Controlled Period - Parking and Contact with the Cliff Low Bar

    Originally posted by FTC6190
    Is it allowed to use the Cliff Low Bar (the one below the pull up bar) to pull ourselves up the mountain and can we remain in contact with it to stay in the high zone at the end of the game?

    A: Yes, Robots are eligible to earn points for Parking in a zone if they are supported by or touching parts of the Mountain that are located in higher zones.

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  • Air Jordan
    Game Design Committee Member

  • Air Jordan
    replied
    Section 1.5.4.1 End Game - Cliff Pull-up Bar

    Originally posted by FTC8551
    We competed in a tournament this weekend and ran into a scenario that based on the interpretation of the rules resulted in zero points being awarded for an attempted hang from the pull-up bar. I do understand the strict interpretation of the rules but it seems to be a technicality versus a purposeful "penalty" that would help to clarify so that others don't run into this problem at higher levels of competition.

    Our team robot uses a tape measure to hang from the top bar and also has RC mud tires that are soft for climbing. The robot also has an arm that swings over the top of the pull up bar to lock in the robot. Depending on the dynamics of the hang the robot will have two tires above the cliff low bar either touching. To determine if the robot is resting on the cliff low bar the refs would push it away from the cliff bar and if it moved freely then it was hanging and would get 80 points. If it appeared to be resting on the cliff low bar because pushing it with a stick didn't move it then the team was awarded zero points for the hang/climb. In every circumstance of the hang the robot is fully supported by the tape measure which is geared so that it doesn't extend based on weight of robot plus an arm that is then moved over the top of the pull up bar for a second point of contact.

    Based on the rule listed below the expectation is that you can rest against the Cliff Low Bar and if removed the robot would continue to hang from the pull up bar. Based on the physics "Robot Fully Supported" and being allowed to rest against the Cliff Low Bar the Cliff Low Bar will support some portion of the robot.

    From the Game Manual Part II

    Cliff Pull-up Bar – A Robot Fully Supported (i.e. hanging) by the Cliff Pull-up Bar earns eighty points for its Alliance. Robots may touch the Cliff Vertical Divider, rest against the Cliff Low Bar, and be in contact with an opposing Alliance Robot if the contact is Inadvertent and Inconsequential. The intent of this Scoring achievement is for the Cliff Pull-up Bar to support the Robot’s weight. If the Cliff Vertical Divider, Cliff Low Bar and the opposing Alliance Robot are removed from the Mountain, a Robot that is Fully Supported by the Cliff Pull-up Bar would not fall from the Cliff.

    Could you clarify the following scenarios:

    Q1: If a robot is hanging from the pull up bar and not touching a high zone churro or any other portion of the high zone is the intent of the rules to award zero points because by chance some portion of the robot is stuck on the cliff low bar. If the robot is resting on the cliff low bar and the bar is removed, the robot would "fall" and come to rest on some portion of the high zone; our expectation is that the team would get points for reaching the high zone.

    Q2: In a similar scenario to Q1, if the robot has some portion of the robot touching the high zone basket and the basket is clearly not providing support how would the hang from the pull up bar be scored where it was determined the robot was "resting" on the cliff low bar.

    Q3: Same scenario as Q2, except the robot is not resting on the cliff low bar.

    Q4: If hanging from pull up bar, not resting on the cliff low bar but touching some portion of the high zone basket what would be the point earned.

    Q5: If a robot is hanging from the pull up bar and in non-supportive contact with the the cliff low bar. If the cliff low bar is removed and it is obvious that the robot would rotate and have some portion of the robot touching the high zone what would be the points earned.

    Q6: Same scenario as Q5, except the cliff low bar is supporting the robot.

    First of all, the procedure described in the post that was used to determine if the Cliff Low Bar is providing Support to the Robot is valid. A Robot that easily "swings" away from the Cliff Low Bar is not receiving Support from the Cliff Low Bar in the context of the game FIRST RES-Q. If the Robot does not easily "swing" away from the Cliff Low Bar or if the Robot lowers when it does swing away from the Cliff Low Bar, the bar is Supporting a portion of the Robot's weight.

    Please review the following posts to the Game Q&A Forum for additional guidance for determining a valid Pull-up: 27, 61, 65, 70, 73, 76, 77, 84, and 101.

    A portion of the answer in post #65 is worth highlighting in this post: "Robots using the Cliff Low Bar as a "step" for support after the Match ends should not earn Pull-up Score points. Robots resting against the Cliff Low Bar like a person would lean against a wall is allowed for a successful Pull-up Score."

    A1: Yes, the intent of the game rules is to award zero points for a Pull-up if the Cliff Low Bar is Supporting the Robot.

    In this scenario, if removing the Cliff Low Bar results in the Robot "falling and resting on some portion of the High Zone" it does not qualify the Robot for Parking in the High Zone.

    If the Robot is partially Supported by the Pull-up Bar it remains eligible for earning points for Parking in the High Zone if the Robot is also Supported by the Mountain High Zone and the Robot is not supported by the zones below the High Zone or the Playing Field floor.

    A2: Zero points for a Pull-up because the Robot is Supported by the Cliff Low Bar and zero points for Parking in the High Zone because the Robot is not Supported by the High Zone.

    A3: Eighty points for a successful Pull-up because the Robot is not Supported by the Cliff Low Bar or any other portion of the Mountain located in the lower zones.

    A4: Eighty points for a successful Pull-up if the High Zone Goal is not Supporting the Robot or forty points for a successful Park in the High Zone if the High Zone Goal is Supporting the Robot.

    A5: Eighty points for a successful Pull-up because the Robot is Fully Supported by the Pull-Up Bar and it is not Supported by another portion of the Mountain.

    A6: Zero points for a Pull-up because the Robot is Supported by the Cliff Low Bar and zero points for Parking in the High Zone because the Robot is not Supported by the High Zone.

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